Kocourek and Vogel

Kocourek and Vogel

Kocourek and Vogel

$36 million. That’s how much Manitowoc County, Thomas Kocourek and Denis Vogel and Co. would have been liable for if Steven Avery would have won the civil suit. Kocourek and Vogel had so much on the line and they could have lost EVERYTHING if the civil case would have went forward.

Redditor foghaze wrote up their theory about the involvement of Kocourek and Vogel in the disappearance and murder of Teresa Halbach.


I’ve come to my own conclusions about who killed TH. Why they did it and how they did it. You don’t have to agree but after reading all the documents and researching for hundreds of hours this is the only thing that makes sense out of all of it.


We don’t know much about what was going on in Avery’s civil case and I believe that is for a very good reason. I think if we had the documents we may be singing a whole new tune about who we think had a motive. I found a link to all the documents in Avery’s Civil case here[1] . None are available for free except for one. However, this one document[2] can give us a pretty good idea of what was going on regarding the case. It appears to me that this civil suit would have been a very big deal to Kocourek and Vogel specifically. Not only are they named but if you read the only document we have access to at the moment you can see almost everything they are being accused of personally. From what I can tell this would have ruined their lives completely. It wasn’t just about the large sum of money but it was also about their names, their careers, their dignity, their respect. Their lives would be shattered! This one document is very specific in that it lists everything they did to frame Avery and it isn’t pretty. I wish we had the rest. I will ask /u/Skipptopp[3]  to please consider getting access to these files. If all the funds have run out I think we should all get together and raise just enough to get access to this. I think it will answer many of our questions.


One of the most interesting things about this document. (Aside from it being in Oct 2005) is it looked so bad for both Vogel and Kocourek that they asked for a TRIAL BY JURY October 2005. You know it’s bad when someone demands a Jury. So it wasn’t good at all for these two. It outlines and accuses Vogel and Koucorek personally in their wrong doing. If Avery would have won this thing (which it looked like he was going to). It would have been a public spectacle and it would have been the end for these two and quite possibly looking at jail time if Avery won.


So let me set the scenario up for you. We have all the other people in LE who have had their depositions. Lenk, Colborn, Kushe, Peterson, etc.. They all are running around talking about and asking each other “what did you say?” “How do you think it went?” “What do you think will happen?” Etc etc. Right? So as much as they claim they didn’t talk about it you would be a fool to think they didn’t. All of these men had been working together for decades so of course they are talking about it amongst themselves! They are relaying everything to each other amongst themselves. Lenk and Colborn tell Peterson and Peterson tells Vogel and Kocourek. Everyone who was involved and deposed tried to downplay it all through the investigation and trial and everyone bought it. (I even bought it). The reality is they were all shitting themselves. Especially after they were all caught off guard in the depositions.


On top of all this Vogel, Kocourek et al. had a deep hate for SA already and this civil suit put them over the edge. I believe they would have done anything in their power to keep from the tables turning. The thought of them being publicly humiliated and held responsible for their actions didn’t sit well with them at all. More fuel to the fire is SA turns out the Millionaire and they are left with nothing. Talk about the tables turning! Their hate for this man is very clear. If this civil suit went through it would mean Avery WON and they lost. There is no way in hell they were going to let that happen. Not a chance. From what I can tell just by reading this document it looks to me like Avery was well on his way to winning the civil suit and everyone involved knew it. Otherwise why would they ask for a TRIAL by JURY?


Moving on, everyone involved kept all the dirty details of the civil suit low key and only discussed it amongst themselves. They made the public believe it wasn’t a big deal and they even made the public think Avery was suing just the county and no one personally which if you read the link to the document above you can see that is a big fat lie. In fact there were talks about naming other individuals in the lawsuit. Specifically Kushe, Colborn and Lenk and they knew it too. Colborn even admits on the stand he was concerned about being named.


With that being said Kocourek and Vogel were both out of the Manitowoc LE picture by this time. Vogel had moved on to bigger and better things and Kocourek had retired. I’m really surprised at how many of us forget how much of a motive these men had. This got me to thinking. I am pretty convinced these big dogs (Vogel and Koucorek) had something to do with TH murder. Why not? They set him up the first time didn’t they? So why wouldn’t they do it again? How would they do it?


I think it would be similar as the first time. In fact I see a multitude of similarities from the 1985 case and this one. They also knew that killing Avery wasn’t an option b/c they would still be liable in the Civil case and they also knew that the public would be very suspicious of them and Avery would be dead so he would have no voice in the matter. So to avoid the public of blaming them they decide to frame him for murder. How could they do it? One of the big dogs could easily hire someone. These men had contact with criminals. Of course they would know someone who would do the deed for the right price. It also helps with their own conscience because they aren’t the ones who are actually pulling the trigger. They get a criminal to do their dirty work.


The way I see it is if one of these men did it then they wouldn’t really need to tell everyone in LE what they did. In fact once TH went missing and everyone in LE saw she had been to SA’s they were thinking “HOLY SHIT! Someone killed her to blame it on Avery! I gotta roll with this.” I think it was more of a “Silent” frame job and none of them spoke a word of it to each other. I believe they all knew it was an inside job and just went with it to cover their own asses. I don’t think many knew it was Vogel and/or Kocourek and no one would even dare ask. They just went with the flow because several others in LE were also concerned they may be liable in Avery’s suit as well. In other words they all knew what they needed to do without asking questions. Once the deed was done everyone in LE just went with the flow. Let’s face it. It was a terrible frame up job. They clearly didn’t have time to think it all though. They just knew they had to roll with it and that they did.


Something else peculiar that I’ve been questioning is on Nov 5, the day the car was found, Peterson who was sheriff at the time was also good buddies with Vogel and Kocourek. They had worked together most of their lives. Peterson was out of town and arrived home late 11/5. He stated he immediately “divorced himself” from the investigation and he did! Now why would he do that? Is it because he knew? That is the only thing I can think of. I think he bolted out of town before it all went down and he knew something was going to happen and it wasn’t good. Being out of town is a great alibi and a really good way to keep himself out of the picture. If you think about it all these “big dogs” were very successful at staying out of the picture.


If you ask me there was more than 36 million motives to frame Avery. Everything these well respected men had worked for all their lives could be washed down the drain. Their dignity and respect with the community out the window forever and their worst nightmare of some low life scum practically owning the County and most of the state would come true. There is no way in hell they were going to let that happen and they didn’t.


It has been stated many times statistically the likelihood of TH being murdered by some random person who had also coincidentally had contact with SA that day is slim to none. Manitowoc has approximately one murder every 2 years. We are supposed to believe this random murder with perfect timing just fell into LE’s lap? Come on. We are delusional if we believe this. I will admit I had gone back and forth but now that I have put a lot of thought into this there is no other way this could have happened if Avery didn’t do it. Which I believe 100% he did not.


One more thing I’d like to add. This scenario doesn’t go well with what KZ has stated about TH knowing her killer. I realize this and I do wonder a lot about what Zellner has actually found. I feel like she says things just to throw the guilty parties off. She has stated she doesn’t want them to “run” and in all honesty I would do the same. Everything she publically states is very calculated. We are talking about someone’s life here. There is no way she would say anything to jeopardize SA or BD. I wouldn’t and I may even tell some white lies. With that being said I really truly believe Vogel and Kocourek had the biggest motive of all and I think they had the power to pull it off without neither actually having to pull the trigger. All they would need to do is make some phone calls. Being how messed up TH phone records are (one number even being disconnected) I’d say that is exactly what they did.


Teresa was “lured in” all right but it wasn’t by SA. I believe it was someone pretending to be Zipperer because she didn’t have his address. They called her and told her to meet them somewhere. That was the real 2:27 call. It wasn’t Autotrader like they want us to believe. I believe it was this number that was ironically enough disconnected by the time LE looked into it. Coincidence again? I think not!

Kocourek and Vogel could have lost everything and would’ve lost all respect and dignity from the residents of Manitowoc and beyond.

As foghaze pointed out, Kocourek and Vogel had the means and know-how on how to frame Steven. I know a lot of people don’t want to believe the LE theory but it is plausible. As I said many times before, people believe in ghosts but they have a hard time believing LE would plant evidence.

I think down the road, we’re going to come to find out how much involvement Kocourek and Vogel really had in this case. If they weren’t the ones who murdered Teresa, then they’re behind the planting of evidence and the witch hunt against Steven.




Kocourek and Vogel
Kocourek and Vogel
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